<text date="20/07/2021" audio_length="1:29:38" focus_group_ID="FG1" no_participants="5" participant_source="Prolific experiments" WTR_threshold="medium" co-facilitator_present="yes">

<Facilitator: So, I thought what we could do is we could just introduce ourselves by the name we've got here. And we could just give-- I thought I'd ask you a question, just to learn a little bit about each other. So, the question is: if you could have a lifetime supply of anything from the supermarket, what would it be? So, I'll start and then if each of us could afterwards could nominate the next person to go, so you just pick somebody to go next. So, hi, I'm [facilitator name], as you know, and if I could have a lifetime supply of anything from the supermarket, I think it would have to be coffee, because I'm dependent on it. And so next, I'll pick... [F1].>

F1: Right, hi, I'm [F1], and I'll have, I'll have, um, can I be specific to which supermarket or... actually I'll have a lifetime supply of an unhomogenised milk from Waitrose because I love it it's super milky I love milk, like coffee, milk will do me really well. Right, and so from the four other participants, I pick [M1].

M1: Oh, oh sorry I'm using [name] am I, it's [M1].

F1: Oh, right!

M1: Yeah, it would probably have to be, unfortunately, but hopefully in sustainable bottles, water. I drink so much water every day. I probably drink three litres a day. It would be bottles of water in something better than these plastic things. 

<Facilitator: Great. And who would you like to pick to go next?>

M1: [M2] please.

M2: Thanks [M1]. Hi everyone, I'm [M2], I live up in Scotland, I think, erm, from the supermarket and how to be a toss up between crisps or beer. Not sure which but (laughs) one of those two I think. Erm, I think I've gonna pass to [F2].

F2: Hi everyone, so I'm [F2]. I'm Romanian but have moved to UK about ten years ago. And if I would have to pick just one thing, it would be watermelon. I know it's a weird one, but we grew up, er, with my grandmother growing lots of watermelons, so I can't live without them. So yes, watermelon. Er, yeah. So I guess the only one left is, I am really sorry I do apologise but I have no clue how to spell your name. 

<Facilitator: Is it [F3 name]?>

F2: Yeah, yes, sorry, I, yeah, it's very difficult to pronounce some-- most English names for me but, um, yes, sorry.

<Facilitator: Great, so go ahead then [F3].>

F3: Oh yeah, that's okay. So, yeah, so I'm [F3]. I'm currently based in York. And what I'd pick from the supermarket is really difficult but maybe a tie between chocolate and wine, because they go together so well.

<Facilitator: I'm seeing a theme here. It was very difficult for me to not choose crisps as well. That would have been my very close second. So, yeah, as I mentioned in our, in our conversations before in our emails, the project we are working on is looking at plastics, and we're looking at how to try and reduce reliance on single use plastics, so, we have two main topics to talk about today. The first is plastics, generally, and then after about halfway we'll move into talking about reuse, so reusable packaging. So, to begin with, I have one really big question for you. And that is: what does plastic mean to you? So when you hear the word 'plastic', what comes to mind?>

M2: Do you want us to speak out or?

<Facilitator: Yeah, go ahead.>

M2: Erm for me, probably a container, or some kind of hard-feeling plastic. Erm, I've got a slightly different view than now because I've started 3D-printing recently using plastic, printing plastic things at home, which I know is a bioplastic so it's a little bit more environmentally friendly but yeah to me plastic's something made from either a plant or a sort of petroleum-based source, which usually sort of is a firm, so, you know, smooth, textured thing or you can get in a variety of different finishes and things but it's used in pretty much everything these days and you know, it's hard to spend much time without coming across them.

<Facilitator: Great, thank you. Anybody else, what does plastic mean to you?>

F1: Yeah, I can, I can go about that. So for me because I am a, I'm a chemist, well. So when-- first thing I think of plastic polymers have something, something I don't understand because I'm not specialised in that thing. But I know that, erm, the second thing that comes to mind after polymers, is that it, it goes in the ocean, it kills all these little fish and turtles. So always try to save the turtles. And, yeah, we get in everyday life, we try to stay away from it, try to find alternative to it. Yeah.

F2: Well erm, for me, I think, plastic is, usually, when I think of plastic, is, I think of rubbish. Most of the rubbish that I see when out and about, erm, and like I said, from Romania as well, erm, it's plastic. So, bottles of so many kinds. All kinds of packaging. And it's... so, it's pollution, for me, equals pollution, and equals cheap. So, because plastic and packaging plastic... Plastic is so cheap. For me, plastic equals cheap. That's it.

M1: Yeah, much the same for me really it's, it's, I just think, I mean by, by the sea, there's just bottle after bottle after bottle, people just throw it away, I mean you got plenty of bins in Brighton, but people I just seen it so many times people just throw it on the floor. I mean in my car I've got various bottles and I mean I recycle, recycle them right but I've seen so many people throw them out the windows, throw them on the floor. But er, yeah, yeah I think of rubbish. I think of rubbish when I think of plastic.

F3: So, similar with me except like because I am some [inaudible], I have no idea about what goes behind what your actually plastic is made of so I just associate it most with rubbish itself, but also specifically also unnecessary rubbish like plastic bottles and plastic bags specifically, I don't get the point of plastic bags, erm, and also associated with, erm, packaging for specifically junk food. Erm, and back home like so I'm from India, so I think, at least from my own life I have noticed that it has increased more in India, that it is like recently wasn't so much there before, like, I don't think we used to have plastic packaging for things like green lentils and things, so now it's everywhere, at least in cities. So yeah, I think it's quite unnecessary and maybe it's increased because, like somebody said.

<Facilitator: That's really interesting. This theme about how things used to be and... plastic, maybe it's become an emerging thing, would you, do you agree with that? Do you think this is something that's kind of growing or?>

F2: I think it has become very hard to avoid. One because, like, like it was said. You used to be able to buy, different things like beans and stuff like that with no packaging, and now more and more products are-- you find them with packaging like even apples, more of them has packaging than not. And also, because for example, my budget is very tight at the moment coming out of maternity and trying to find a job, I feel forced to buy plastic-packaged food, because for example, the difference in price for apples that are not packaged, loose apples, they're more expensive than the ones that you find in plastic bags. And that is not obviously not just for apples it's for many, many products. So I feel forced to buy plastic basically because of my budget, I just can't afford to buy loose products, like I would very like. Same with packaged foods, I mean, I try to cook, er, scratched-- from scratch, as much as I can but with a tiny baby that does not always feasible. So there's loads and loads of prepackaged foods that is in plastic and it could, you know, it's very well, that they could be put into something more sustainable or not plastic, but suddenly, it just feels like you can't, you can't avoid it. It's a forced thing upon you by whoever makes these products.

M1: I was, I was in our local petrol station the other day, and they actually had apples in there, individually wrapped in plastic. Why? All individually in a big box wrapped in plastic, why?

F2: Or bananas, why do you have to--

M1: Apples, apples individually wrapped, why? (laughs) I mean they weren't any more expensive than say Sainsbury's but why are they in plastic? I mean, I mean does that extend the life? I don't think so. Really, does it, I mean, I don't... it's just a, it's just a waste

M2: It's maybe a COVID type thing, people not wanting things on display in case other people are touching... Even though you'd just wash an apple

M1: Yeah, just wash the apple. No, I don't agree with that at all. I think it's just a waste of plastic and of course people just throw it on the floor then, don't they. Lunchtime they get the apple, throw it on the floor and there's more rubbish on the floor. Yeah.

F3: That's definitely one thing that I don't understand. So I recently moved here, so it's really, it definitely annoys me, like why vegetables and fruits are so packaged and... And I want to buy like [F2] said, like I want to buy loose but sometimes loose in the supermarkets over here is more expensive, and I'm a student and my budget is obviously tight, like I can't afford to. But it's very frustrating like, the vegetables are packed and they're not... like onions are in packages, it's like plastic bags doesn't help, onions doesn't, definitely, they don't stay longer if they're in plastic, I don't get why they're.. like some things maybe get, I don't know, maybe barcode and whatnot but it's very different. It's frustrating sometimes I just want to buy something fresh like actually feel the vegetable when buying it instead of just picking up packets. That's the thing.

M2: One thing I've kind of learned over the last year, with er... I'd always assumed that buying things with plastic, it wasn't so much of a problem if you were recycling the plastic, but then there's been a few news articles this year about how much of that plastic you think you sent for recycling is ending up in landfill in other countries, which has been really, and that's actually, it has this year made me, you know, as before, I felt by recycling that plastic, you know, or choosing stuff where the plastic could be recycled, it wasn't really a big problem, but I think actually that's not the case. I do feel a bit differently now about trying to minimise plastic [inaudible] and particularly in like, shops and things like that.

F1: I was gonna say it's, to me it's well, like you know the consumer voting is one thing, but also what is also really frustrating is that, if, if you want to buy for example glass containers, it's just much more expensive. You know those reusable boxes or containers for lunch or the stainless bottle, they er... They're just much more, much more expensive and, yeah, not very pocket-friendly compared to plastics.

M2: We recently had something with milk, erm, some local farms where I live here have come up with a milk dispenser van that goes around locations every seven days, and you go and you buy your glass bottles, so you can buy a two-litre, or a one-litre bottle. The bottle costs you 1.50 unfilled, and then it's about 1.80 to fill it. But you can go and get, you know, you can get two two-litre bottles of milk for 2.20 from Coop, you know, that's plastic, you can definitely do it but it's, it's so much more expensive. I think you have to kind of be keen to change your behaviour and using it to want to do it, it's not... I found out you know it's not a viable alternative, in a lot of cases. 

F2: Well, I don't think it is a question of wanting to change your behaviour, it's affording to change your behaviour, like I said in my case I just can't justify the costs. I would really love to be able to change my habits and choose, you know, bamboo toothbrush and all kinds of other alternatives, I just can't afford them.

<Facilitator: So it sounds like cost is a, is a, an issue. >

F2: It is, it is like, well I know it's not the subject of what we're talking about but it's the difference between a bottle of water, and a bottle of Coca Cola, for example. You know, water is more expensive than fizzy drinks. So when you go then have your, a quick lunch or something, what will you choose, if you're on a tight budget, you will definitely choose the Coca Cola instead of the water which is more healthy, or it's supposed to be more healthy anyway. So, again, we've come back to the same problem, the cost, especially after the year we've had and what we'll probably have for a little while yet, many families will struggle more than, they weren't struggling before. So I think sadly the increase in plastic will be quite significant, because of the costs.

M1: Well I think it would be a good idea if, my bottled water, you had these big dispensers, maybe, where the companies er-- I'm not advertising but, you know, this company maybe in one of those big dispensers maybe in a supermarket, something like that. And they supply maybe erm reusable plastic, er not plastic, er reusable, you know, type things, put it in, fill it up with this product, away you go, isn't it, I mean you could you can you just go there again, refill it up. I mean surely that's better than, look, I mean, this is, what, 12 of these was 2.50 in the supermarket. 

F2: I think we come back to costs again.

M1: All that plastic, all that plastic for this. I mean if there's an opportunity for me to go to a dispenser I know there's something like it in Bangkok. I've got a friend in Bangkok and he was telling me about dispensers out there, so you'd have you'd have this sort of reusable type thing, put it in the branded name water or, erm, orange or whatever it is and then, away you go. And it's not that much more expensive, not that much more expensive but I'm sure it could bring the cost down but surely that's better than this, supporting these all the time isn't it--

M2: We've got that up here in Scotland actually now Scottish have put in a network of refillable sort of stations out in public locations in the big cities first and slowly... so I think that is happening, just slowly. 

<Facilitator: Great. Um, I just wanted to pick up on something you said [M2] earlier about COVID. So, this connection between COVID and plastic, do you think COVID has affected the way you think about plastic? I mean are you more likely to buy something in plastic or do you, do you see it any differently during COVID? Or is there no difference?>

M2: I mean, I guess it depends what, what kind of food it is. And an example I'd say is a local Coop, in the past they would have bread rolls out, and you would have picked them up, you know with the tongs, and put them in a paper bag, take them to the till. They now are prepacking them in fours in plastic packaging, so people don't feel worried about someone coming up and coughing and spluttering all over the food, and certainly there for something I can't wash, like we said an apple earlier, you know I'm comfortable like washing an apple and removing anything harmful from it but I can't wash bread. Erm, you know so certain things like that, well I could wash it but it wouldn't be very nice. So yeah, so, some types of food, I would probably feel more comfortable if it was... wouldn't have to be plastic in fairness, it just has to be kind of wrapped up, you know if it was a paper bag, I'd be happy with that as an alternative, but they seem to be going for plastic probably because of, you know what we said earlier that it's cheaper than paper bags, and they're, they're bearing the cost of that or having to pass it on. So I think from that perspective, I'd like, yeah, at the moment there are certain things that we [inaudible] I mean we had some chat around you know vegetables being loose and stuff like that and again, you can wash some, some... you can't really wash an onion and stuff like that very easily, but, you know, it could be packaged more sensibly in paper but they're obviously not doing it. Probably on cost.

<Facilitator: Anybody else, anybody else have any feelings around plastic in light of COVID? >

F2: I think with all these, erm, hand sanitising bottles or whatever, stations, and... we are carrying, obviously, a lot more plastic with us. And where I live in, in Wiltshire, in our small little town there are practically, probably, five bins, in total, out and about if I go. So, most people don't bother to carry their plastic, empty plastic stuff with them. Because there's only five bins. Most of them are out on the streets. So you see a lot of face masks, which obviously they are made out of plastic, as far as I know, I might be wrong, and all kinds of little or medium-sized hand sanitiser bottles. But it's just, yes. So definitely, an increase of different types of rubbish that you see out and about because of COVID and the measures that we've used.

<Facilitator: And, and what is it do you think about plastic, exactly, that makes you feel that way about it, is it the fact that it's so long lasting? You know we've talked about plastic as being a bit like rubbish... Is that because where we see it. So, is there something inherently about plastic?>

M1: Well it's what's available, isn't it, what, what is out there is... if that's all that's available but then you buy it. But, yeah, but the other thing of course is that there was a report done where it says, there's lots of little tiny particles in plastic that can get inside the body, I don't know if you've ever sort of read into that before. That worries me (laughs) I drink so much water that does worry me. What's it doing to my insides?

M2: I think erm... We, we had a baby recently as well and erm my partner, read something about finding plastic in breast milk I think, which is quite concerning so, yeah, you definitely don't want this stuff getting everywhere.

F2: Well yes, it's because it's, it has, erm, been found in most of the things we eat like obviously fish. So whatever comes from sea or rivers that has a very high amount of plastic in it. And from the water that we drink because it seeps into the ground. So, the water that is pulled and bottled and we drink contains plastic already. Not to mention, mention it... it is bottled in plastic, most of it. So yes, I think. I don't think there's a way to avoid it really, I think it will take a very very very long time to be able to change so many things in order to be able to really avoid being contaminated with plastic, because that is what it is, it's a contamination. I wouldn't go as far as 'poisoning', but it is quite, you know, depends how forcefully you want to think about it. There are, like, erm, I was reading an article about Nestle and their bottling policies and so many cities and towns and communities that have been fighting with it, with this company, erm, because they, well, they kind of take over the water supply, and they do whatever they want with it. And the communities have really no control of what, what is going on with their own water. And also what I found very strange, erm, in America, for example, you can't collect rainwater. So basically they say the government owns that water. So you need... yes, you need special licence or whatever you call it, the rainwater is not yours. So here in the UK, I've seen plenty of people who collect rainwater and they use it for their garden or whatever. But yes, apparently in some of the countries it's not your water if it falls on your ground from the sky. And so you can't, you won't have access even to that water as a way to, you know, water your plants with something that is not polluted already, but then again I suppose depends on what kind of area you live in the atmosphere could be polluted with all kinds of stuff. But yes, I don't see a way for us to avoid plastic. It's, it's just a way of... I wouldn't say feel trapped, but it seems we're going towards that. 

M1: Yeah, if there was a cheaper method, then the manufacturers would use it wouldn't they, if there was a cheaper method, where costs, you know, one pence per tonne for this, they'd use it. But of course, you know, there isn't, so that's why we use plastic.

F2: Yes, but is that, is that our fault as consumers?

M1: Well, they dictate to us. You know, what is on the shelf, that's it, what... you know, we're the customer. What's available on the shelf we buy it, erm, unfortunately.

F2: Yes. Yeah, I suppose it's, it is kind of like the egg and the hen. You know, it is availability and it is affordability. Yeah.

<Facilitator: Thank you. Um, [F3], [F1], do you have anything you'd like to add on that topic of plastics, how they make you feel?>

F1: I, I think it's become, I think now, nowadays, you know, we use plastics it's become more of like a convenient thing to use. For example, also, like we discussed before about the water dispenser. I'm pretty sure people will have issues, like, oh, is that dispenser clean, how do they clean it compared to like you know freshly bottle stuff. How do you justify that is actually clean now compared to something that freshly sale so people are more, you know, more. I mean I would also choose what I feel is more cleaner but that's, that's not sustainable, right. And...

F3: Yeah, so erm, I think my dislike for it also comes with just looking at how it's just everywhere around. And specifically, at the sea. So, I'm from, I'm from Mumbai, which is a coastal city, and it's definitely polluted. And now, I think, I guess, a lot of, a lot of rain, because of rain, a lot of mud, climatic stuff happening, there's a lot of high tides, all that rubbish comes back to us on, on the city roads. So, It's just, it's just why are we even using it, and it's definitely not sustainable. But again, that whole... that cycle as well, that you have to buy it because it's there. You can't do anything about it, it's cost as well. Erm, so I think mine is mostly to do with that and also with knowing, also with knowing the difference that there used to be an alternative it's just now it's different, like even the fact about the water dispensers and, I mean they do differently is erm, that what... that people refuse to [inaudible], they do not carry water, not just in bottles... they would, there would be water fountains as well. And I mean other people, I mean, not people, but other sustainable alternative as well, of carrying them as [inaudible] there used to be [inaudible] these things from your family or whatever but it used to be different, but now it's different because it's just everywhere so I think that also like makes you realise like how you have to buy this specific thing because it's just like, there's no other alternative.

F1: Talking about, you know, recycling, the single-use plastics as well I don't know if they maybe they used to have it here or maybe they don't have it here, but for example in Thailand, you know, we buy a bottle... or at least when I was young, I think even now we buy, for example, Pepsi bottle like 500ml or 700ml Pepsi bottle, it comes in a glass bottle where you, you can you go back to the shop and we, we don't have to give any deposit or anything, go back to a shop, put in a crate and they go back to the company I think they wash it they reuse it. I don't know if they have it here, we have it a lot in Thailand for like for example like milk as well, fizzy drinks for sure. I would still use it. Yeah.

M1: They used to do that in the UK a lot. When I, when I was growing up--

F1: Oh right--

M1: Corona bottles, and you used to take it back and get five pence for it, or something, something [inaudible] a kid like that, I used to get the five pences given to me by my parents, but if I took the bottles back so, so yeah so encourage you to recycle. It's a shame they can't bring something similar back so, it's like you take your plastic water bottles back and you get, I dunno, 50p or something like that.

M2: I'm sure there was a scheme getting launched for that--

F2: Yes, I've heard of that as well.

M2: Yeah, and you go and put your bottles in a dispenser, like in a, I think a supermarket and it would give you, like, a voucher to spend in the supermarket, to encourage you to do that. I know on, on the glass bottles, there are still some things, I'm Scottish, I drink Irn-Bru, and you still get Irn-Bru in glass bottles, you know in big [inaudible] bottles and I haven't done it for a long time but used to get a deposit like you were saying as well for taking them back, you used to get 20 pence back for one of those. But again, only certain brands do it, I guess it probably costs them more.

<Facilitator: I haven't had Irn-Bru for such a long time. Great. So, speaking of alternatives, I have a couple of pictures I wanted to show you, of some packaging. You might have seen these if you shop at Ocado. [shows Image 1 and Image 2] You might have seen these. So, it says on the front, "Natoora", that's the brand. "This film is 100% plastic-free." And then the product name, I've seen other things as well, I think they do dates and a few other fruits and veg. So, what would you make of this packaging, if you saw it? Have you seen it, have you seen anything like this?>

F2: I haven't.

M2: I've not seen it but I think if it wasn't significantly more expensive, I'd be interested in switching to it from something wrapped in plastic.

F1: I think the question to me is that it's plastic-free but where does the packaging go, does it still go in the landfill does it go in the recycling bin... What, what do I do about it because I mean to me if I buy it, it's gonna go in the, in the general bin, which I don't know if that helps. I don't know if that's--

F2: Yeah it would be interesting if they said on the packaging. It's not enough to say it's 100% plastic-free. I would be more tempted to buy the product if it says, like, made out of hemp or something. And obviously yes, going back to the costs. If it's not a huge difference, then yes, definitely, I would be very inclined to switch if it's just a few pennies, then. But if it's like, you know, two pounds instead of my usual one, then, obviously, yeah.

<Facilitator: So I can, I can tell you, unfortunately I don't have the photo of this itself, but-- >

F2: Sorry, sorry guys I just need to go and get the baby food.

<Facilitator: Yeah, no problem. So on the back of his packaging unfortunately I don't have a picture of it, annoyingly. I wanted to get a picture of the back, but I just have the front and the side, but on the back, there's an image that says you can compost, the film, right. They say to treat the film like an orange peel. How, how would you perceive that I mean, would that make you feel more likely to buy something like this?>

M1: But it doesn't tell you what it's made of does it (laughs)

F3: Yeah, I think that, that would help, if they told us what it's made of.

M1: Yeah, yeah I wanna know that.

F3: I wouldn't want to just trust them, like this is plastic-free. No, I don't trust it, like, tell us what it's made of, like, I think [F2] mentioned hemp, if it said, maybe I'll try it out, like if it's fine. I'll try composting it, put it on the side. If it's like fine, the cost is okay. It's not a big difference.

<Facilitator: So you mentioned trust, is that an issue, do you, do you feel as though you need to have more information to be able to trust these kinds of claims about being plastic-free? >

M1: Yeah, don't believe everything you read (laughs) just because they say so.

M2: I think, like I said earlier like the way I used to think, when you send plastic for recycling it was getting recycled and then you find out it was actually getting sent to landfill in a third-world country. You know, I think you're right, you can't trust everybody and some people are just more interested in making money than doing the right thing. So, I'd like yeah, the more information the better I think.

<Facilitator: So you would, you'd like to know what it's made of, not just that it's plastic-free. What about a word like 'bioplastic', what would that mean to you if it instead of saying 'this is plastic-free' it said 'this is a bioplastic'?>

M2: See that would make sense to me because I use bioplastic 'cause it's in my 3D printer, and I... So you know before I bought that I looked up what it used, 'cause I didn't want to be contributing to, you know, something negative plastic-wise, and you know it's made from corn, its original source. And although it doesn't degrade immediately, it can degrade in a couple of months under ideal conditions but I know you can compost that as well. So, to me I would personally understand what that was and be happier using that. I think possibly the term 'plastic' might still put people off, you know, 'bioplastic', you know, you'd probably have to still differentiate why that's different from other plastics. Plastic is a polymer. So I think it just doesn't have to be polymer of anything, erm, [inaudible].

<Facilitator: Does anybody else have any immediate perceptions of the word 'bioplastic', so [M2] you've, you're familiar with it, you know, for everybody else if you saw the word 'bioplastic' would you, would, would that give you a sense of what that means and what that's made of?>

F1: I mean, I, for me I would, I would buy it, and I mean I wouldn't, until they specifically tell me how to recycle it, or how to dispose of it, it would just go in general bin for me which I don't know if that's the ultimate aim of making bioplastic, that's probably not. But I think, you know, if they want to make something that oh you know, they tell you oh you can compost it at the back of your garden, I think it should be there, like, yeah, because, I mean, if I buy something in a plastic bag, I'm not gonna go Google it and like on like how to where the bin, which bin this goes to, right. If, yeah... I think the information needs to be there. If it's a true information or not I think that's not up to us right that needs to depend on the manufacturer from the, they, giving honest information about it from the... Yeah.

F2: I think it's, I think it's in the wording that puts me off, so it could, it could... If the wording would be different and it wouldn't contain 'plastic' in it. It's like all those vegan rebranded chicken or bacon but it's made up of soy. Erm, you know, that's not bacon, it's... different. It's something else. So just stop trying to sell it as bacon, it's not. 

M2: (laughs) Yeah that annoys me as well.

F2: So, anything vegan, that is, you know, named by the meat alternative, it's just, it puts me off. I'd rather, you know, I consciously buy products that are not, that do not contain, you know, meat words, if just call it what it is. And this is in my brain, at least the same problem, it's the wording of it. Yeah, it would, it would put me off.

<Facilitator: That's so interesting. So are you saying that's similar to the word 'bioplastic', or are you saying that similar to a claim of being plastic-free when it's bioplastic?>

F2: Yes, so it's, it's the claim that it's plastic-free when it's bioplastic, so just it... like [F1] said I'm not going to start Googling stuff, it's just confusing, in a way. So, yeah, it puts me off. And...

<Facilitator: So, something saying 'plastic-free', but when it's a bioplastic... What is it that distinguishes something plastic-free from being a, an organic, a bioplastic?>

M1: Something...Sorry--

<Facilitator: Yes, yes.>

M1: Go on, you got first--

<Facilitator: No, no-->

M1: Yeah, something certified maybe, certified by a particular body that this is plastic-free. I think that would encourage people to, "Ooh, I'll get that", otherwise we just got their word for it. If there's some kind of body, I don't know if a body exists for that, is there a body that exists for that? And if it's on the packaging, then you're more likely to trust it. At the minute they just say 'plastic-free' well, yeah I've only got your word for it, but if it says you can maybe check up, certified by ABC body, then at least you can go on the internet, have a look, "oh yeah, it says...", you know, at least you've got some proof then.

F1: Actually you know, looking at this picture that you have put on. I'm wondering if the, if the plastic-free stuff is the container that's inside and wrapped up inside of plastic, yeah? Because I mean, if it's the paper carton inside that could be plastic-free, but they didn't think about the wrapper that makes it.

M2: I suppose if you argue someone took the inside container out of the plastic wrapper. Yeah you wouldn't know, you know, someone could give that to you without that wrapper then you'd be thinking, whatever that thing in the middle is plastic-free and it might be because it's cardboard and you think oh, well, of course it's plastic-free (laughs)

<Facilitator: So the fact that it's got a paper tray, and it's inside something that looks very plasticky and it says plastic-free, is that adding to the level of maybe distrust? Is it making you wonder, are they being tricky, are they saying, are they claiming something? So I can see how that's a confusing, can create a confusing message overall.>

M1: Well that's a selling point, isn't it, they're trying to do a USP that it's plastic-free products that's inside the box. People are going, "Ooh, it's plastic-free" and they'll buy it because it's plastic-free. Not because of what the contents contain.

M2: I mean to me that packaging seems half-assed. 

M1, F2: (laughs)

M2: If you've got a container, why can't you find another way to keep the contents inside it, than wrapping it in a plastic bag, you know, you could just put, you know like, cardboard lattice over the top, so you can still see what's in there and you know, the tomatoes are a fairly substantial thing, you can make the holes quite large so you can see what's in there. Why do you need to wrap it in plastic? One thing I have seen is like that is some of the sort of upmarket stuff, like, you know, clementines in some packaging like that, and it's you know, there's a cardboard lattice on top so you can see what's in it and there's no plastic at all and that and that, that in my mind may be a better thing to aim for.

<Facilitator: So, so something is bioplastic. It turns out this film is, is, is bioplastic, there was a, I've seen a lot of confusion actually around this. So we know that it's bioplastic, that means it's going to one day degrade, is that right? So does that mean you still feel it, it is plastic, or does that mean it's somehow different from plastic... is bioplastic plastic?>

M2: Yeah, I think, to me it is because I've read about it, it's still a plastic it's just like you say it's from a biological source like a plant, rather than oil-based. And it will degrade that so it's a different classification altogether to me and I think the name probably, as we've already heard a minute ago, does put people off, unless you can make it clear that distinction between a plastic and a bioplastic.

F2: Yes, like I said previously, it just confuses me. And it puts me off because it contains the word 'plastic'. So, I will, again, I won't be coming back home with, with the shopping and start Googling, You know, I will just not buy it.

<Facilitator: Great, thank you. That was, that's very interesting. Okay, I will stop sharing this. So we've talked a bit about plastic. I also wanted to ask you some questions about reuse, so about reusable packaging and whether you use any kind of reusable packaging, so, same sort of question again: What does reuse mean to you? What comes to mind when you hear 'reuse' or 'reusable', in the context of packaging?>

M1: You use it for something else. I mean when, when I have got plastic carrier bags from say Sainsbury's we use it for the rubbish. So at least we use, reuse, reuse it for something, erm... or for storing old sheets, I'm currently using one for. So yes, so just using it for something else rather than throwing it away in the rubbish bin.

M2: For me, I quite like the idea of reusing something for the same purpose, over and over. As you just said there, that's, that's quite good to even use it for anything else but, you know if I buy something and it can do the same function over and over, that's a great way of reusing it because you're, you're not having to make do with using if something else, it's fulfilling its original purpose. An idea being a reusable water bottle or whatever.

F3: Yes, so similar, so most of my plastic is plastic packaging for foods. So I reuse it [inaudible], not using it for packaging food but for using it for [inaudible], mostly, storing something or for rubbish, yeah.

F1: To me, if it's reusable I would reuse for the same thing... If it's, if it's cleanable, if I can clean it, I can reuse the same thing for, like shopping bag, I would reuse it for the shopping bag.

F2: Yeah, no. Yes, it's the same, I would, I would say that reusing the packaging, it has to be for the same purpose, you call it, it's, I don't think it's a full reuse if you, I don't know, do all those arts and crafts stuff that you just turn, I don't know, half a plastic bottle into a little... I don't know you put a little plant in it or put some googly eyes and yep, you've done your part for the planet... It's, it has to be for the same so like, like a proper glass bottle. You know, that is a proper use, reuse of the item. Anything different is not a reuse is just a repurpose for a very temporary thing, it's, it's it might mean maybe you get like one use of it. Is this not proper reuse.

<Facilitator: So there's, there's this difference, then, between reusing and repurposing. >

F2: Yes, yeah. 

<Facilitator: And is that anything that you already reuse? Do you already have any reusable items, do you do buy anything that comes in reusable packaging?>

F2: I can't think of packaging... I do, I mean, I don't think it's the same thing but since I've had my baby and she's nine months now, I haven't bought any toys that are new. Most of her toys, and it's very rare that you can find wooden toys, erm... And they're all, again we come back to the price, they're more expensive, but most of her toys like 90% of them are plastic, erm, but I have not bought any new ones for her, I have used Facebook groups, and everything is second-hand and used probably by I don't know how many families by, by now and they will go again to other families when she outgrows them. So it's not packaging-related, but it is the use of plastic, in a way. So, I think, at least in this way I can not contributes to more plastic being thrown away. It is a, I have found it very difficult to find information on how to dispose of broken plastic toys, or if there's any way that they can be recycled. So that is for me quite a huge problem that, obviously, before I had the baby I had no clue about. But since then, I have, yeah, found it a problem. But as for packaging, I can't think of proper reuse that I do in the house, besides obviously, you know, those tote bags. Supermarket raffia bags.

<Facilitator: Yeah, no, that's, that's interesting. Does anybody else have anything that they use or they buy that they will continue to be reusable.>

F1: So now I think, at least to me insane three I stopped to buy just love fruit. Well, not for I mean to say, I stopped buying stuff that's like a loose item now we have this like a reusable, I think it's metal classic but it's not. Plus, evil, it's not this is not wrapped. It's not like a six apples in a bag. So they have this plastic, like a, like a tie, like a loose tie back that I use those now I use them all the time. Yeah. And I use, we use the water bottle. Yeah, plastic water bottle that I've been reused for a few years now, I don't know if that's great, because you know they have news all these plastic contaminants, but I still use them because sometimes I feel like you're just gonna die one day for something else. Anyway, so. And yeah, that's why I try.

F2: Oh, I just thought of something, since you mentioned coffee. It's quite a good thing that I've noticed many coffee shops now sell you at a discount or whatever, a bit cheaper, if you come with your own cup, and refill. So at least you get rid of or bypass the, you know, the plastic coffee cup. So there would be that.

M2: We got some erm, I think it was silicone-based container covers to use in place of plastic wrap, what would you call it, clingfilm. And they were okay when they were [inaudible] they wouldn't fit things particularly well. So, although it was well intentioned getting them, we've kind of ended up stopping using them because they weren't...

F2: Yes, I have tried the erm, the beeswax wraps. And maybe I was just unlucky but I did not get on with them. At all.

M2: I guess we had that for bread as well when, like when most people tried, erm, making their own bread in the first quarter of the pandemic and, you know, to keep the bread fresh but it gets sticky and horrible and you have to wash it in a really particular way, you can't just like dunk it in the sink, you have to gently rinse it under warm water and stuff and it's a pest. So we ended up just not using it.

M1: I do use, reuse these bottles, I mean we're I can, I will fill it up from the tap so I don't just open it up throw it away, another one, throw it away. I do actually reuse them, where I can, so (laughs)

F3: I think I have reused some pots over here, like getting it from Facebook groups and not, not bought any, so reuse them in the sense that I use them for the same purpose. Like, plastic pots, plant pots, using it in my house to grow plants. Erm, but, but something interesting from what everybody said was that using plastic packaging is hard to reuse it for the same purpose but other things you can reuse it for the same thing, like a plastic bag that is [inaudible] you need to use it again, again, to get the [inaudible] say, you would get the package. Maybe you get a piece or, or vegetables in a bag. I mean you can't use that for the same purpose. So, yeah, that would be a difference I guess. About reusing, I guess I do reuse a few things like containers like even containers to store, mostly.

F2: Speaking of, well, not reusing but I have noticed, like I have recently moved counties so I moved from Surrey to Wiltshire, and it's a, there's a huge difference in what each county recycles. For example, we had more options in Surrey to recycle things, glass bottles, all kinds of plastics, papers, er, crisp packets... Food, so we had the food bin, here in Wiltshire there is no food bin. We just throw everything in the black bin. So, I have noticed, so there is a big difference in what each county and council and whatever gives as a possibility to their people to re, you know, reuse, recycle and things. And it's, yes, it's quite annoying because I was used to recycle a lot more things, and obviously used the food bin, and now I have to just chuck everything in the black bin, and it's quite frustrating as well. I was, for example, part of a Facebook group that gave us the possibility to recycle items that normally we would throw away for charity so they would raise money for charity by recycling these with TerraCycle, I'm not sure if any of you have heard of it, but they would send these items to TerraCycle and they would get money for their charities. So, for example, milk bottle lids, you would send them like huge bags so it was quite a big group and you would you would see a truckload of milk bottle lids, sent to TerraCycle, and you get money for the air ambulance. Or crisp packages, you would put all your crisp packages into one of them and you make like a little brick and you collect all of them from all these people and you send them to TerraCycle and again, these items normally would have ended up in the bin. For example now, with the baby I use quite a few food pouches. These are not normally recycled, but some brands, if you send them back to them, they do recycle them, but normally they would just be sent straight to the bin, and to the, erm, you know, the local dump or whatever. So, my point was, there's a big difference in what the counties and councils allow people to recycle. So that is a quite big issue, I think.

<Facilitator: Yeah, this is a very good point because, speaking of regional differences, there's something I wanted to show you that's available in Leeds. I don't think any of you are in Leeds, but I've just got a couple of videos. So just let me know if there's a problem with the video or the audio. [shows Video 1] So this is offered by Asda in Middleton in Leeds and there's just one more video. They go so fast these TikToks, I'll just, I'll start from the beginning. [shows Video 2] So what, what do you think of that? What do you make of that?>

F2: It almost makes me want to move to Leeds (laughs)

M2: (laughs)

F1: I felt the same thing!

M2: It's pretty cool and I think it's... I'm interested in being able to use something like that.

F2: My only worry would be, erm, so when you pay up, is it, it said, 'sign up' or 'sign in' or something like that, so is it, is it account-specific? What, what security does that machine have or... so, my only concern would be my payment details and stuff like that. But other than that, I think I would be very inclined to use that machine. I wasn't too keen on the, I, I've seen them in the shops, the eco refill ones. And because I am a domestic cleaner, so I use quite a lot of erm, it it's just a lot more tiny bottles to use. So I would prefer, like the Persil, it looked like a stainless steel or something like that bottle. I would prefer something like that than two little tiny eco refill bottles. Yeah.

M1: I'd use it, but, what if there's 49 other people behind you want to use it as well. How long would it take for 49 people to fill up their bottles, because I think that would put people off. They'd rather like, I can't be bothered--

F2: Yeah, yeah--

M1: They go down the aisle... They're already home by the, by the time you saw that bottle. That'd be the only danger and I think why it wouldn't probably work on a mass scale.

M2: I think, psychologically as well, the price of the refill on the Persil one seemed okay, but probably myself included if I saw 5 for the first one I'd be like, eh, you know, whereas if they just sucked up the cost as good, corporate, whatever you know then I'd be quite happy to do that but I think that certainly would put some people off, just the sheer cost of the... the sheer cost, there probably will be some people that won't pay that.

F1: I think it's a, I think it's a good thought, you know, good initiative but I feel like they need to open more to you know people bringing their own bottles whatever regardless of the bottles, they should be able to refill that, right, because it's a Persil thing to go in the bottle, they shouldn't have to force people to, you know, buy just stainless steel or whatever material that costs 5, that's, that's quite expensive. I mean, I would be turned off as well if I, like, would have to pay 5 for... That's a bottle. Yeah.

F3: Yeah. Same, I think the initiative is good and I've seen refill stations over here as well. Some shops, some independent shops have them but it's not like you have to buy a [inaudible]. You can just get any plastic bottle I'm sure every household has some plastic bottle, so they can just bring that and refill it for laundry and other domestic cleaning products. So that's, like, it's not like there's the 5 bottle. That's, that will put you off I guess but yes, just buying this going with any container you have is much better and cheaper also.

<Facilitator: So it sounds like some of these, these barriers that you're mentioning are to do with the functionality, or maybe the logistics, you know, you don't want to queue and I understand totally. Are there any other barriers that you have to reuse? Is there anything, you know, about reuse that you wouldn't feel comfortable with, or are you alright with reuse if we were to solve these kind of technical issues?>

M2: For the products that you saw in the video, they'd all seem okay. There'd be some things I might be a bit funny about putting in but teabags and the washing up liquid and stuff like that, that's totally fine. Some, you know, erm food types maybe slightly less so but yeah in general, that would be be okay.

F2: (Baby crying) Sorry about that, I've had to bring her down 'cause she got bored playing upstairs. 

<Facilitator: She's participating.>

F2: Yes (laughs) I know erm, so, from from your video about the stations, for example where I used to live in, in erm, in Camberley in Surrey, in the shopping mall there were two independent shops that offered a refill station for laundry stuff, and for hair care and body care so shampoo, conditioners. It wasn't any of the big brands though. So I, sadly I moved very soon after they've opened so I have only been in there once or twice, but like I said there weren't any big brands of products in there. I don't know if they were, most of those... eco, I don't know, or organic or whatever types of products in the refill station. They were also, erm... So it was a part refill station shop and a part one of those where they would sew reusable nappies, so they would make their own, they're in the shop and they would sell them. So, you know, I did try reusable nappies for my baby, it just, it didn't work out for us, it's... as much as, you know, nappies [inaudible] are also plastic and they're a huge pollutant and I feel extremely guilty about it. But, for, for a parent that doesn't sleep very much and stuff it just, having to deal with washing 20 nappies and, you know, having... it's a huge cost as well, to invest in a proper cycle of nappies and it's like 300 to last you for a proper week. So the logistics and the cost of it makes very, very hard to switch from plastic nappies. Sadly, like I said it did not work out for us, but in that shop you could you could buy... So, reusable nappies, makeup stuff for ladies. So you know my, you know, all kinds of sanitary products as well, tote bags, all kinds of crafts that, you know, they made there in the in the shop and they will sell them. So it was a part thing but everything was... but there was no plastic in there to be honest, there was no plastic to be seen in that shop. And it was a very invigorating thing to see. And, but, yes, it is, it was nice to see that there was a proper shop for it. Because you wouldn't stand in a queue for just one machine, like [M1] said. So it was a proper shop with multiple areas for more people to just, you know browse and stuff. The only deterrent for me at the time was the cost. But obviously if my budget would improve, I would most definitely be welcoming the opportunity to have such a shop in my area, and I would definitely be more than happy to switch, if I could afford it. So, yeah. I think, so, there were two shops, one opened, I found out later, I think, two months after the first one opened. So the demand is there such for such shops and such opportunity.

<Facilitator: There is a kind of growth isn't there of these reuse, refill shops which... how does this make everybody feel, I mean would you be comfortable with, with having refillable things or are there any things that you wouldn't feel comfortable with having reusable containers for? Is there anything you wouldn't want to reuse? >

F2: I would definitely be comfortable. As long as the, the price incentive is there (baby burping) oh, pardon you, young lady. (laughs)

<Facilitator: Anyone else, anyone else have any specific, I don't know, products that you would feel, maybe uncomfortable or especially comfortable with reusing? We've talked about laundry, things like that.>

F1: I mean, I, I would be comfortable to reuse those you know laundry, cleaning products, shampoo... Like I wouldn't use something, reuse something like towel or...

M1: I think toothpaste for me. I wouldn't use... when you put... I wouldn't get a toothpaste out of a dispenser I don't think--

F1: Yeah, maybe not that, yeah. 

F3: Personal hygiene wise--

F1: So hygiene stuff, yeah. 

<Facilitator: [M2], was it you who mentioned before about a milk dispenser? >

M2: Yes.

<Facilitator: So, I mean if there was something like that but for yoghurt, for instance, would you, would you be interested? With refillable containers that you take back and then they wash it maybe, and...>

M2: Yeah, I think I would, because I am in control of cleaning that, erm, I did notice for the milk bottle actually, it doesn't clean particularly well in the dishwasher, which it recommends as the way to clean it and sterilise it, because the one-litre glass bottle is quite bendy I guess, so the water doesn't get to the very end, to clean it fully so I did have to actually steal the babies bottle brush to get in and clean it out and it's a little bit of a faff, but yeah yoghurt would be okay as long as I was satisfied the container was, you know, was properly cleaned because that'd be my concern, you know you'd miss something and you put something, potentially, that's going to give you a bug, you know, think of something like yoghurt or milk that'll grow bacteria nicely. But yeah, I think I would be okay in principle as long as I was clear... the one, the one cleaning the container. 

<Facilitator: How does everybody else feel about that, a refillable yoghurt station, maybe, container?>

F3: I would do it, I would use it.

M1: How, how long does yoghurt keep for? It doesn't keep that long, does it? I'd be worried about it going off.

F2: Mm.

F3: Mm.

M1: I'd be worried about it going off. (laughs)

F3: Yeah.

M2: I guess as long as, you're right, as long as it tells you, it gives you, printing off your label or whatever, as long as it tells you how long it's safe to keep it for. 

M1: Mm.

M2: Because, I suppose if you have, you know there are obviously certain foods you know could be more likely to make you unwell, if you go past the date, and I suppose dairy stuff is, is one of those. So, yeah, you definitely want it to be very clear on when you had to use it by. It'd be interesting to understand as well if there's any impact in how dispensing it in that kind of, you know I'd imagine if you get yoghurt, created in the factory, it's probably very sterile, you know, can you guarantee that that, you know, does that give it a longer lifespan than if you get it dispensed just through a standard spout in a, in a machine in a supermarket, I suppose. But, erm.

F2: I, I don't think I would feel comfortable with a refill station. I think I would prefer just a plastic alternative packaging. Like a, like a milk carton or, I don't know, anything that is not plastic. But, but not not a refill station for, for any food stuff like milk or yoghurt or the likes. The same with meat products, I don't think I would feel comfortable. Er, I mean, as someone who worked in her youth in a deli counter, you have to trust that you know that seller or the one that is working behind the counter with your, with the hygiene of the, of the entire counter, and of the, [inaudible] that they use, of their tools, of their hands, of everything. So, for this very reason because I used to work and see some of the conditions and practices and stuff, I don't buy, I don't buy any deli that is loose. So, I would be more than happy with any packaging that is not plastic, but I would avoid the loose this time, as opposed to fruits and veggies and stuff like that. Anything that is meat or dairy, I would prefer it packaged, but you know, not plastic stuff.

F3: I think when it comes to trust maybe I er, will take like milk and many easily perishable items from a local grocer, much more easily maybe than corporate, big supermarkets perhaps. I hadn't thought of the cleaning thing or anything. So, I don't know like it depends, like, if there is a local shop close by, like, in terms of maybe like a dairy shop that sells milk, and I buy from them in loose, maybe like fill a jar, or fill a bottle, and it's, you consume it and you see it's okay and it's good like it's not affecting you, it's fine, then I think I would feel that trust and go for, same, same with meat, perhaps. Erm, if it's fresh and yeah, if it's a local shop.

<Facilitator: Great, thank you. [M1], did you have anything you wanted to say about reuse, anything, yoghurt...?>

M1: Yeah, apart from toothpaste, yeah, I would, I would use those kinds of machines, certainly. But, er, I think that depends, depends what it is but my sort of worry would be on a mass scale you'd just be queuing up and you'd have to be coming from home with loads of bottles and other plastic things, you, you're trying to sort through all these things, "oh, that's that machine over there for that one", you'd be at the supermarket for six hours filling up all these bottles, that'd be the downside. I think initially certainly for a few items, I'm all for it but I think, it would, the logistics of the whole thing would be, you know, would be massive. But it's a, it's a start, isn't it, it's a start, which is the main thing I suppose.

M2: Maybe another consideration just popped in my head there is where these things are located, you know, if they're only in major supermarkets, you know that, that's okay, I guess, but it could be quite handy if these things, depending on how frequently people would use them could be a bit more in the community, like the milk one that we've got, you know, that's, you always need milk so you know that's, that's a good idea to have out in the community, I suppose if you could move these machines out, you know, into smaller places like the village I live in and things you know, places like that, then that that would definitely, you know, somewhere I could walk to to get it rather than having to drive to get that one thing then I'd probably be more inclined, as well to use them. 

<Facilitator: Great, thank you. Um, so, just as we're coming up to time. Does anybody have anything else at all they want to add about about plastics, about reuse, anything along those lines? Any thoughts you've had, during the course of this discussion?>

M1: Well I had, I had an Amazon delivery the other day, I have a fire alarm, you know one of those smoke alarms you put up on the ceiling. And it come in a box that size, the smoke alarm is that size, and it was completely covered. It's plastic with air in. There was absolutely a load of it. (laughs) I mean, why? That's, you know, well you can say, "oh we need plastic for this and that", why does it need plastic in there, why can't you just have a small box? Why couldn't it be delivered like that? Why does it have to come in a big box, coupled with air plastic with the box in the centre, so it's not only the plastic itself the cardboard as well, all the cardboard has then got to be recycled, so, that does annoy me. And that's one the reasons why I got involved with this, because that's the kind of thing that really annoys me, unnecessary plastic.

M2: Yeah, it's very half-assed a lot of the packaging, nobody's thinking cleverly about how to package stuff, or very few people.

F3: Yeah, I agree with that. Especially, like fruits and vegetables, like you said, apple, it's ridiculous, like, it's not needed. 

F1: I think, you know, we, we talk about, like, you know, making environmental friendly like packaging and other stuff, right, I think it's also important to advocate people like you know your friends and stuff to learn proper recycling. Because more than 50% of my friends I know they just don't do it because it is more convenient, chuck it in the general bin, right, because that's nearer, more available. And, like people don't, I find most of the time people don't read the packaging. Or, like, is this recyclable or, I think, yeah, I think we need to be more proactive. You can always start, like, you know, within my office or whatever, but I think it's also very difficult to tell them by the "Oh, don't throw it out in that bin, throw this in the other bin". Yeah, I think that that would be that, this as important as you know finding alternative solutions to all these packaging as well.

F2: Yes, I think, I think it's a very valid point is changing the mindset of so many people. Too many, too many people are 'out of sight out of mind' mentality. So, it's just, "oh, you know, throw it in the bin, whatever bin that is, and it's just out of my house I don't care anymore". But then you have all these, like, like for example all these floods that they've had in Europe and back home in Romania, they have flash floods, every year, mostly in mountain areas. And what do you see in the top of the mountain in a very small village that's been ravaged by flood flash floods? You see plastic packaging, that's been carried away by the smallest of creeks that has grown with, with, with rain and collected everything from the forest, and it just... so at the end of the day, you would think that, you know, at the top of the forest, you would not find plastic and you should definitely not find plastic and there it is, because people just throw it away, whatever. You know "I throw it away, it's not my responsibility anymore". And that mindset definitely needs to change for any improvement to take hold, like [F1] said, it is pointless to find alternatives to plastic it's, well, it's not pointless I guess if you, if we managed to replace plastic altogether by finding alternatives and not produce plastic anymore then yes, people will use whatever they are given. But up until then the mindset, definitely needs to change, erm, for, for any improvement to be visible.

M2: I think as well, we need to see more shaming of companies that are, you know, abusing plastic, plastic packaging because that does work. It's IT I work in and one of the suppliers we have is Dell, and they came in and spoke to us a couple years ago and sort of said, why they were changing their packaging and it was actually because the guy who is in charge of Dell, Michael Dell, saw on a news bulletin, it was one of these erm, you know, sort of technology waste dumps in India where they recycle the kit, and he saw a Dell monitor on top of the... and he was, he said he was so embarrassed by that. He said, "I don't want any packaging in use, that's gonna have my name on it that is contributing to this" and as a result of that they've moved to things like mushroom-based packaging for all their, you know, you get a laptop from Dell now, the stuff that comes in is made of mushroom packaging and stuff like that. I think we need more shaming of companies that aren't doing something their bit, you know, we're talking about us doing our bit for plastic, you know, and changing our behaviour and they need to be doing it too.

F3: Yeah, I agree. Also, I think it's important for us to know what is, what happened inside, and why it's bad and everything but the onus should also be on coal companies as well, to not just ask [inaudible], but also, is it even necessary, like is it necessary to use plastic in that particular context? Like sometimes even Amazon, one tiny thing and they'll pack it with so much bubble wrap and cardboard boxes, like, why, like you open boxes and boxes to find one small thing.

M1: Maybe, maybe a campaign. When I was growing up they used to have a campaign called 'Keep Britain Tidy' and you used to have sort of these little signs all over the place and so it, at school, we always had to put our crisp bags in bins and, it was in your mind, it was instilled in your mind to put your rubbish in the bin. But these days, there's not anything like that. And so maybe public shaming of people for throwing rubbish, more consequences, I think is needed--

<Facilitator: Consequences-->

M1: 'Cause like, I read somewhere a couple of months ago, it said, there'd be more plastic in the sea by 2045 or '50, than fish. That's quite worrying, isn't it. 

<Facilitator: Mm. Yep.>

F2: It's er, I think going back to accountability, erm, it's not just obviously us as consumers and, erm, the companies that produce, the producers, but it's also the government and the local authorities that should be held accountable as well. I mean, we pay a lot of taxes, and every year they increase but you don't see that many improvements and definitely not in the areas that you'd want--

<Facilitator: No-->

F2: And most of the time you don't have a say of where the local authorities spend the money that they get from you, erm, it's been especially embarrassing, when you see those documentaries of all that rubbish that's been, erm, shipped overseas to third-world countries, erm, and unfortunately I mean obviously they are starting to wake up to it and say, "ship them back", which is great, 'cause people here need to 1. find out and 2. be ashamed of themselves, to be honest, erm, but yes the authorities definitely need to be held accountable as well. 

<Facilitator: Okay.>

F2: Because at the end of day you have the 'out of sight out of mind', but you trust that when you've put something in the recycling bin it gets recycled properly, and it turns out that that has not been the case, er, more than too often, so erm, yeah--

<Facilitator: Yeah. I'm sorry, this has been such a, such an interesting discussion and I wish we could carry on, but we've gone a bit over so I'm going to draw things to a close but thank you so much everybody, I feel we've, we've had a really interesting chat and I really appreciate all of your participation. It's been really great.>

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